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Brockwood Park 1979

Brockwood Park 6th Seminar Meeting 18th September 1979

KRISHNAMURTI: As this is the last discussion or dialogue or whatever it is, do we sum up the whole thing, or do you want to investigate further into what we've been discussing? No answer?

QUESTIONER: Could we investigate further?

K: Could we investigate further? I think you were not here for the last two discussions. What we were saying was that there is actually no individuality at all. And if, when, not if, when the individuality is understood, its nature, its activities and its institutions, is there an ending of that individuality, because the individual is really the whole world, in essence, so there is no individuality. And if there is no individuality, does it carry the memories, the recording, the various forms of remembrances, do they exist when the individuality comes to an end. We went into that very carefully.

And, if you want to go still further, can the individual ever be complete, whole? But individuals seek that, try to integrate themselves and imagine or work, think, that they have become the whole. Isolation, which is the activity of the individual can never be complete, can never be whole. And when the individuality comes to an end, which is, it requires a great deal of investigation, which we did, and what is the quality of the mind that is no longer centred in itself? What is the action of a mind that is not self-centred. That's the whole point.

We said, to perceive this whole movement of the individual and its activities and its organizations, is to have an insight into the whole movement of it. And that very insight is out of time. I don't know if we have understood that. Insight is not a remembrance, is not a calculated, investigated result, it is not a process of recording and acting from that, and it's no longer the activity of thought, which is time. Therefore insight is the action of a mind that is not caught in time.

I don't know how far one has understood this, or gone into it even verbally or intellectually. And then, if there is that insight and that intelligence, and we said, intelligence goes, must always go with love and affection, have compassion, then what is the action of such a mind, in a world of violence, of degeneration and all the things that are happening around us? What is the action of such a mind? We've come to that so far.

And we also said, is there an action in which thought as the actor - is there an action without the actor? Can we discuss a little bit, that? The actor is the observer, the actor is the self-centred accumulation of activities, the various forms of various remembrances, recollections, the whole process of recording, as the individual. And from that we have acted. And that is separative, exclusive, and isolating. When there is isolation there must be conflict, obviously. So is there an action which is not individualistic in the sense we have described it and therefore without the actor?

All this may sound rather intellectual, verbal and perhaps nonsensical, but if one examines very closely, really earnestly and goes into it deeply, it is not. And the individual has always sought experience. Experience, not only a doctor or a surgeon who has had a great deal of experience and therefore skilful with his hands and mind and so on, that's one kind of experience. Any other kind of psychological experience implies that there is a centre which is experiencing. I don't know if you are following all this.

And the experience must be recognized, which means it has already had an inclination of it. So a mind that is free of the individual - may I go on? - has no experience. Won't somebody catch me out?

Q: Because it's experience that stabilizes the sense of individuality.

K: Sir, look - experience as a good driver, as an engineer, as a skilful surgeon, a carpenter, he has accumulated a great deal of knowledge and according to that knowledge he skilfully acts, performs. And that's one kind of experience. The so-called spiritual experience the word 'spiritual' I don't like to use, the so-called psychological experiences only exist when there is a centre from which the experiencer is experiencing. I wonder if you get it?

Q: Why is that necessary, you see - why is it necessary to have this centre.

K: The centre has been formed, has been accumulated through generations.

Q: That's memory.

K: That's memory. That is, the tradition, the various impressions, pressures, all that has created the centre.

Q: And the memory of all the pain and pleasure.

K: Memory involves pain and pleasure, obviously, which we talked about the other day. So I'm saying, sir, or asking, we have always sought mystical experiences. Right? So-called spiritual experiences, something more than the ordinary, sensory self-limiting experiences, something more. I question that whole mystical search and experience.

Q: If it's not an experience, then how do you distinguish...

K: That's just it. If it is not an experience, the doctor asks, then what takes place?

Q: Do you have the feeling, I mean, experience include the feeling, sensation - does it?

K: No. This is really - are you interested in all this?

Q: Yes.

K: Why? (Laughter) Sir we've had every kind of experience. Right? We have had different kinds of experience, sensory, emotional, romantic, experience of so-called love, intellectual, all that, experiences of cultivating knowledge. Right?

Q: Something you do, something you go through?

K: Yes, there is something we do.

Q: And we experience...

K: And there are experiences which the so-called mystics have. Right?

Q: What do they claim their experiences are?

K: I don't think it is an experience.

Q: But they say, some people say...

K: Some people say it is an experience, suddenly the whole world is me, suddenly the universe and me don't exist.

Q: Now why is that wrong?

K: Wait, I'm coming to that. I want to first get the thing clear. There is sense of universal harmony, universal something or other. That means there is a recording taking place. Right?

Q: It may.

K: No, it must.

Q: If they have a centre in it.

K: Yes, that's my whole point. As long as there is a centre which is experiencing this spiritual, this super


Brockwood Park 1979

Brockwood Park 6th Seminar Meeting 18th September 1979

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