Brockwood Park 1978
Brockwood Park 1st Public Dialogue 29th August 1978
This is supposed to be a discussion, or a dialogue. A dialogue being a conversation between two people and as it is impossible to have a conversation with two people including so many, perhaps we could take a problem which may affect all of us and discuss it as though it were between two people. Or we could turn this into a question and answer meeting. So which would you like? Discussion generally ends up in an argument, which would be rather futile, offering one opinion against another, one judgement against another and so on. But whereas a dialogue, a conversation between two people who are friends, who are concerned about a problem which is mutual and perhaps they can talk over their problems deeply, quietly, seriously and with a sense of humour. Or we could turn this into a question and answer meeting; there too again what kind of question one asks, who is asking, what is the purpose of asking and who is going to answer the question, and so on. All that is involved in all this. So which would you like, or think it proper, to either question, dialogue or discussion?
K: If it is to be a dialogue what shall we talk about, remembering a dialogue is between two people, a conversation amicable, easy, quiet and penetrating? So what shall we talk over together?
Q: I would like to ask a question, not necessarily a dialogue. You were saying yesterday that the chaos and the violence in the world is a result of our everyday life. But I don't think it is as easy as all that. If you take the spectrum, at one end of the spectrum you put Hitler and at the other end of the spectrum you put a person like Schweizer, then you have two people who are doing something quite different: one person is trying to help humanity and the other person is trying to destroy humanity. Now if you leave that aside for a moment: take any one person in this tent, give them the right environment, the right job, they are free of conflict, they are not hooked on religion or dope and they get cancer. Now the conventional religious view would say that it is an act of god, which is obviously crackers. But you could say that this person has a disposition towards a disease. Now it does appear to me that in the world today there are people who are definitely for the forces of good and those for the forces of destruction.
K: The gentleman asks why do you say the world is in chaos because we are in chaos, each one of us, uncertain, argumentative, greedy, selfish, violent, which perhaps may project in the world, bearing in mind that we are the world: we are not different from the world. And there are good people, the questioner says, and there are some bad people, bad guys and good guys, and would it be erroneous on your part to say that because we live in our own particular individual lives, rather violent, ugly and so on, that maybe quite inaccurate.
What other questions would you like to discuss, talk over?
Q: I would like to ask a question, if I may. I was churning over in my mind what you said yesterday about registering memories. And what concerned me was if you were to ask me a question, if I was to totally experience what you were saying to me that at the end of the question, if I had totally experienced it, that I wouldn't know that you had asked me a question in order to be able to answer it. And what I would like to ask you is: is it possible that we have two parts to our communication, which are the two hemispheres of the brain, one which only receives and which totally registers all the time, and the other part which transmits, which in fact we need not register because if we experience that we need not register it. It is possible - my mind has got a blank now. (Laughter) When we receive we are not able to blot out that memory, that it is there totally and that in fact it is our choice whether we use one side of the brain or the other and to what we use each side of the brain.
K: The questioner says there are two spheres in our brain, one that is receiving, registering, memorizing, and the other part, perhaps the other part which is more free, which is not conditioned and therefore there is this duality going on in us. And memory, remembrance of a particular of this sphere is necessary. That is his question.
Any other questions?
Q: Yes, would you please talk about the problem that arises when the intensity of one's feelings and emotions block one's awareness.
K: When one's emotions and sentiments and reactions, which are intense and strong, block a perception, what is one to do?
Q: I understand that meditation is a way of life all day, so you think there is no need to sit down in lotus position at certain times. That is one thing. And the other thing is when we return from here and we are all alone in a crowd where do we find the strength to keep on?
K: Yes. Is it necessary to sit in a certain posture, lotus posture introduced from India and the East, is it necessary to sit that way to meditate? And is it necessary to set aside a certain part of the day to have daydreams! (Laughter) I know, I am only joking. And how is one to have, when one leaves here to have the strength to face all one's solitude, loneliness, all the travail of life. That is the question.
Q: Do you see any relation between the awareness and faith?
K: What is the relationship between awareness and faith? Yes sir?
Q: I would very much like to ask a question connected with the first question. This is that one can see fairly clearly that one's own psychological pain, the pain of the world as a whole is caused by us, a projection. But it seems that there is pain in the universe as a whole which is not caused by human beings. The sort of thing I refer to is the genetic imperfection of children being born with frightful diseases which one cannot put to human beings. In other words a slightly imperfect universe causes this pain. This is quite a problem.
K: If I understood the question rightly, may I put it in my own words to see that we understand each other? That there is not only individual suffering, each person suffers in a different way, but also there seems to be a universal suffering, a global suffering - children are born deformed, mentally retarded and so on and so on.
Now just a minute please - which of these questions do you want to discuss? Which is, first the question the gentleman asked: you may be in error when you say that because we live in chaos and uncertainty and violence and so we create a world that is chaotic, violent and so on. That may be a wrong question. Are you exact in saying that? I have reduced it to a small thing sir. And the other question is: do we have to sit in meditation in a particular posture, lotus as it is called in India and it is brought over into this country. And the other is, your question, emotions and sentiments, which are intense come in the way of observation, clarity and awareness. And the other question is: what is the relationship between awareness and faith? And that question that gentleman put, which is: there is not only human, particular human suffering but there is global, universal suffering. Now which of these questions...?
Q: What about loneliness?
K: Nobody asked about loneliness, I introduced it.
Q: The question about registration, the two sides of the brain.
K: Oh, yes, I beg your pardon - quite right.
Q: There is one more question.
K: Wait a minute sir. That gentleman asked that perhaps two spheres in the brain, one that registers, remembers, accumulates knowledge, experience, cultivates memory and so on, the other part may be unconditioned. What is the relationship between the two? That is right sir? Now no more questions.
Q: One more question. What is the source of urgency, energy to go into all these questions?
K: What is the source, the drive, the push, the pressure, why should one be interested in all these things?
Q: What is the beginning of memory and is there a point in time when the mind sees the age of a problem?
K: What is the beginning of memory and what is?
Q: Is there a point in time when the mind sees the age of a problem, like fear being older than jealousy?
K: I don't quite understand.
Q: I can see fear is older than jealousy. There are times when I can see the age of a problem. It is a rather serious question about reincarnation.
K: Ah, you want to discuss reincarnation. Now which of these questions would you like to talk over together?
Q: Global suffering.
K: You decide. (Laughter)
Q: The use of energy.
Q: Krishnaji, could you deal with them all in some way by answering one question?
K: The questioner asks: could you include all these questions in one question, in one statement. Perhaps we could.
Q: You said we could forget the past and...
K: I never said we could forget the past sir.
Q: Forget the past, you said it the day before yesterday.
K: No, I did not.
Q: When you have got suffering you have forgotten it, in your finger - and the past is difficult to forget. I want to know how we can forget the past.
K: Forgive me for contradicting you sir, but I did not say forget the past. You can't forget the past. We will go into all this by taking one question, which perhaps will include all others. now which shall it be? Just think it out sir. Look we have had several problems put to us and the gentleman suggests that we should perhaps by investigating one question, one statement, you could perhaps include all the others. I think that it could be done. But which shall we take which will include all the others?
K: Just take a second sir. Take just a second. Let's find out. Which question would include all the others?
Q: Where do all these questions come from?
K: What is the source of all these questions?
Q: The source is the energy which asks the question.
K: Is that what you are interested in, the source of the energy that asks all these questions?
Q: Could you answer the question: what is insight, by what process does it come about?
K: Look there are so many.
Q: The registration in the mind.
Q: You decide, or we are never going to start.
K: You are quite right. (Laughter) Could we take up the relationship between awareness, faith and emotions, meditation and what is the need of a brain that it should register at all, not the two but the necessity of registering at all. Could we by taking one question, I think we could do it, I suggest this, I am not saying it must be that way, I suggest that we discuss what is the relationship, which would include all these. What is the relationship between awareness, faith, meditation, the registration, the global suffering of man, in which is included the suffering of each one of us - right?
Q: And the registration.
K: And registration - I said that.
Now, shall we begin by talking about registration and relate that to awareness and to the intensity of our emotions and so on? Right? So we will begin if we may, if - please correct me, I am not the Delphic Oracle - if you think we should discuss something else we are willing but let us begin by asking: what is the need of a human mind, brain to register anything at all? First of all, are we aware, know, cognizant of this registering process going on? You understand? I am just beginning with that. Do you, as a human being, know, or aware that you are registering? You understand my question? Or you have accepted the statement and then you proceed to question the statement? Are you aware that you are registering certain things? An unhappy incident of yesterday is registered. Are you aware of this registering process going on? Or you are merely accepting a statement by somebody else? You see the difference? If I accept a statement that you have made and question about that statement, which is one thing, whereas if I am aware that I am registering, then my question has a different quality to it - right? So which is it we are doing now? Are we aware that we are registering? Are you aware now, sitting there that you are registering what is being said, which means that you are actually listening to what is being said. Right? Are you? Or are you still concerned about why the need for registration? You see the difference?
Can we proceed this way, slowly?
Q: Sir, one is aware that one holds on to what is being said.
K: Yes, that is it. One is aware that one holds to what is being said? Now why does one hold on to what is being said? When the speaker says there is no speaker, you are listening to yourself, you are investigating yourself, why do you hold on to a statement made by this person? - which means you are not actually listening to yourself.
Q: Sir, because you want to act on it.
K: No, no. You see the difference sir? If you are told you are hungry, that is one thing; but if you are really hungry that is another. Obviously, right? So which is it? Are you really hungry? Or you are told you are hungry? Which means, are you aware that you are registering, holding on to a statement, to a phrase, to a conclusion, to an idea and so on, which is registration going on? Right sir? Now why do you want to register what is being said? Because the speaker must have either a reputation, or you think he knows something more than you do, or you are expecting him to solve your problems, so you are depending on another. The other says, "Please, don't depend on anybody, including the speaker." You follow?
So, let us be clear in this matter. Are you aware of the whole momentum, the movement of registration, when you can see a tape recorder registering - right? Are you similarly aware that you are recording? Or you have been told that you are recording. See the difference. If you are told that you are recording that is one thing, it has no value, it is just like a tape, you can wipe it out and a new tape can be put in; whereas if you discover for yourself that you are registering and ask the question: "Why am I registering, what is the necessity of any kind of registration?" Then we can proceed, then we can communicate with each other. But if you are saying that you said that yesterday about registration, I am awfully interested in this idea, let's talk about it. Then it remains merely at the verbal level, it has no meaning. At least for me, it has no meaning whatsoever. Whereas if you say, "I want to find this out, why I register" - can we go along that way?
Why do you register, if you are aware of it? Obviously you register when something is dangerous - right? A precipice, a snake, a dangerous animal, or a dangerous man, or a motor coming hurtling towards you, it is danger. You immediately register it, in order to protect. And also you register when there is pleasure. So this process is going on all the time. The registration of everything that is dangerous - right? And everything that gives one a great pleasure. One can say the registration began with the first man - the cave man, however they lived. You can see there they had to register danger otherwise they would be destroyed. So let's find out what is dangerous for us to register, and then we can go on to the other. What are the most dangerous things in life that should be registered? Not depending on individual opinions. I wonder if I am making myself clear? Because to me one thing may be most dangerous, and to you, you say that is too silly. So it must be a common factor for a human being, whose necessity is to register danger and therefore avoid - right? Danger means avoiding, not going near it, not touching it, not be involved in it - right sir? So what is most dangerous for you, us human beings?
Q: What disturbs the mind.
K: No, no. What is most dangerous? Not what disturbs your mind You are going off into some - please begin at the lowest level.
Q: That is what disturbs me, that is most dangerous for me.
K: You see what I was trying to void. What is most dangerous for me - I said maybe not so dangerous for another. So don't look, if I may suggest, don't take yourself and say this is my particular danger. See the danger of what is dangerous for man.
K: Yes, which is non-survival? Not to survive. Sorry I am putting it wrongly. The demand is to survive. Anything that destroys that survival is dangerous - right? For all human beings, not for me or for you, for all of us.
K: Why? Why should we survive?
Q: May I restate the question? What is more important than survival?
K: Wait sir, we will come to that slowly. Come to it sir. Survival, and the lady said why should we survive. It is a serious question. Why should we survive? What is the need for survival and this urgency, the demand to exist, to survive, to live? Come on sirs, answer it.
K: Instinct. That is not it. The birds have the instinct to survive, the animals, the reptiles, the most elemental - you know everything demands survival.
Q: Pleasure in life.
Q: Fear of death.
Q: Because we think it is important.
K: I don't see why you even asked that question: what is the necessity of survival. Here you are! If you hadn't demanded to survive you wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be here, none of us would be here. The parents would produce us, they wouldn't exist either. So the world wouldn't exist. So anything that is dangerous to survival we must register - right? Physically a car coming towards us we jump our of the way - right? So there must be some kind of registration to protect the organism - right? To have a roof, to have clothes, to have food, that's apparently natural in every living thing. And so we avoid anything that is dangerous - right?
Let's go into it a little more. Is belief dangerous to physical survival?
K: So you have no belief?
Q: A particular belief.
K: I understand sir, I understand. I believe in something, or in some idea, in some goal, and so on, a belief, so I am asking each one of us, I am asking: is belief a danger to physical survival?
Q: It may be.
Q: In Northern Ireland.
K: In Northern Ireland.
Q: Don't let's go into politics right now please.
K: I know.
Q: A misguided conscience can be...
K: No, no please. I am taking belief, don't begin too many things at once. Take one factor, go after it step by step into it. Is belief a danger to survival? I believe in Catholicism and you are a Protestant, I am a Catholic, we believe in different things. Look what is happening in Northern Ireland, what is happening in the Middle East and so on and so on. For physical survival, apparently belief is a most dangerous thing.
Q: Sir, could I ask you do we not need belief in technical matters?
K: In technical matters, why do you even there have belief? You work, you learn and you go on.
No, just please go into it for yourself, don't question me, find out if you have belief, any form of belief and doesn't that belief divide people? Belief can be a conclusion, a concept, an opinion, strongly held opinion.
K: All that, included. We can put a lot of these words together but let's find out if each one of us has a certain belief, that I am a Christian, that I am an Englishmen, a Frenchman, or - you know, all the rest of it. Isn't that a tremendous danger for physical survival?
K: You say yes, sir but are you free of it?
Q: No sir. (Laughter)
Q: Belief in the good in every one of these beliefs.
K: So I know. We teach in the school every one of these things. So history may be rewritten differently.
Q: Surely belief...
K: You are not really interested to find out for yourself. For God's sake, do listen.
Are you really serious to find out the necessity of registration and the inadequacy psychologically of any form of registration? We are discussing that. If you say belief is a danger then why do you hold on to it, saying I am a Hindu, you are a Muslim or a Jew, or a Communist - why do you hold on to these words?
Q: Perhaps because one doesn't see it completely.
K: So, the gentleman suggests you don't see this completely. The danger, you don't see completely the danger of any form of belief, which is obviously non-fact. Why do you hold on to that?
Q: All belief is a support structure.
K: Yes, belief is a support. If it is a dangerous support why don't you drop it.
Q: I have dropped some.
K: Ah! (Laughter)
Q: But not all of them, when I see all of them only then will I drop them.
K: It is like all of us sir, we want to keep some which are pleasurable, pleasant, comfortable and the others we discard.
Q: I suggest, if I may, that it is not the sensations, the physical sensations of a dangerous experience that we register but that it is the reasoning that we attribute to it at the time that we register in our minds.
K: That is right sir. Let's go step by step into it sir.
We have talked about physical survival and anything that is dangerous to that must be totally avoided if you want to survive. And belief, any division between people is most destructive - right? If you are a Christian, I am a Buddhist, and I fight for my Buddhism and you fight for something else, there is no physical security. Every war has shown this - right? Every war is the result of our particular conditioning, of our particular beliefs, etc. etc. So will you drop all those beliefs because that is the most dangerous thing for survival?
Q: Are you saying that anybody who believes in anything, from the people you mentioned yesterday, the politicians, priests, gurus, is not being honest with themselves, and that only Krishnamurti can put forth the truth? That only the truth is available from you and we must not believe anything from any other person?
K: I couldn't hear the whole of it sir, somebody who has understood it please repeat it.
Q: It is not the belief that is the threat to survival, it is the belief in the belief that is the trap to survival, it is an attitude of mind. The feelings that the belief is something true for all time.
K: Sir, drugs are dangerous for survival, drink is dangerous, smoking and all that business - do we drop all those things because they are dangerous?
Q: When we see a cigarette...
K: Sir, that is just it. So really we are discussing intellectually, verbally this idea of survival. We really don't care if we survive or not. We just exist.
So let's proceed from there. Psychologically why do you register?
K: No, just look sir. Look. I can answer these questions very quickly, but do please enquire. It is a conversation between us two - us two is all of us, you and I, a conversation, in which we are saying: why do I, or you, register psychologically anything?
Q: We can't help it. It just happens.
K: It may be our conditioning. It may be our education. It may be our social condition and economic and so on and so on. So we are conditioned to accept this psychological registration. Now we are saying, all right, that is a fact. Now why?
Q: Does one actually register in fact?
K: Yes, one actually registers, that is a fact. But I am asking why? Do find out. Ask yourself sir, not me ask you, ask yourself: I register my hurts, my pleasures, what you said to me, what you didn't, do, this, that, ten different things. Why do I register psychologically?
Q: Biological registration has gone into psychological registration.
K: There is biological registration which we said is necessary and psychological registration. We said why do we register psychologically at all?
Q: For security. To feel secure.
K: Is that so? Or you are isolating yourself which gives you the illusion that you are secure?
Q: Because we have no choice.
Q: Because we think we can solve things by thought.
K: You say we have no choice - why?
Q: Human nature.
K: No. The gentleman said we have no choice. What do you mean by the word 'choice'? Is danger a choice? And why do you choose?
K: No, no, don't just throw out.
Q: Can we say biologically, let's say I like smoking or whatever - right? This is dangerous but it is pleasurable so thought has a choice.
K: Yes. Sir we are trying to find out the meaning of that word 'choice', the depth of that word. I choose between two pieces of material for trousers or a coat. Wait, wait. Choose. And I choose to go to that place and not to that place. I choose this guru and not that guru. I choose to believe in this and not in that. I am questioning, asking you, if you will kindly listen to find out, why do you choose, what is the source of your choice?
Q: It is a question of pleasure again.
K: No, no. When do you choose? Don't you choose when you are uncertain? A man who is very clear, very clear, there is no choice. It is so.
Q: When you don't know.
K: Sir, that means what? That is right, when you don't know. Do you think you will find...
Q: One thing you choose on a certainty, and the other on a non-certainty.
K: Yes, that is the same thing. When one is very clear you don't choose, when you know exactly what route to take to a certain place there is no choice. It is only when you are uncertain you begin to choose, or ask, question, find out. So I am asking psychologically choice exists only when you are confused, uncertain - no? When you are very clear there is no need for choice. So a mind that is confused chooses. You are all silent at that statement.
Q: Could we talk about why the mind chooses?
K: Wait sir. I want to see - please look at it sir. We are discussing, trying to talk over together why the brain registers. The brain biologically we said, organically must register. Psychologically, inside, we are asking, why do we register at all? Somebody said because we have no choice in the matter. And the word 'choice' implies choosing between this and that. Now when you see danger you don't choose - right? You see danger and move. You don't say, "Well, shall I go to the right or to the left, is it right, wrong" - (Laughter)
So similarly I am asking: psychologically what is the need for registration? Does it help us to protect ourselves?
Q: Yes. When you set out in life we are concerned with the survival of the body but soon the mind takes over.
K: That is what we are saying. Physical survival has skipped into psychological survival - right? I say, why?
Q: It exercises a sense of identity.
K: Identity with whom?
Q: Because we don't really know what is right?
K: So you want to find out what is right? How do you find out what is right when your mind is uncertain, and confused? No you are going off, you don't stick to one thing at a time. Please forgive me. Psychologically why do I register?
Q: Because we want to register.
Q: Because I am not whole.
K: No, sir. Look into yourself, you will find out.
Q: In order to build up experience.
K: In order to build up experience, which is knowledge, which then becomes memory. And without memory, without knowledge you are nobody. So we say "By Jove, I must have some knowledge about..." - right? - otherwise I am nobody. Is that what you are saying? You are not thinking about all this.
Q: One wants to protect oneself.
K: One wants to protect oneself. Biologically, organically, you have. We have learnt how to do that very well. In spite of wars, in spite of terrorists, except the victims. Now we are saying psychologically do you protect yourself? What is it you are protecting?
Q: I think it is...
K: Please answer me. What is it you are protecting?
Q: All this memory.
Q: Your idea of yourself.
Q: Our minds become so cluttered up with what is in our minds that it becomes greater than our experience of our bodies. So our minds become up there and we are more aware of our minds than our bodies. And we think that it is our minds that we should protect.
K: So you give more attention to your body and less attention to your brain.
Q: No, the other way round.
K: Yes, get more and more muddled. (Laughter) You see sir, we psychologically register in order to be something - right? Psychologically - right? I register where I was born, that is simple. The brain registers because it has been trained to accept certain strata of society, and that gives the person psychologically a position, a sense of power, a sense of superiority. So this registration psychologically gradually builds up the ego, the 'me' - right? Don't accept what I am saying, please look at yourself. If you didn't register psychologically would have an ego?
K: Obviously not. Psychologically you are aggressive, abrasive, violent, it gives you a certain sense of - you know, authority, a certain sense of assurance. So this gradual process of registration psychologically builds the sense of the 'me'. That is a fact, no? Me, my opinion, my judgement, my wife, my husband, my girl, your girl, boy, my house, my quality, my experience, my hurts, my fears, my - I am all that, psychologically. Right? It is a fact. You don't have to agree with the speaker, it is so.
Then I say to myself, why do I build this ego, why is there this constant building of the me?
Q: To protect it.
K: What are you protecting?
Q: I am just trying to hold on to it, more and more.
K: Yes, sir. After building it up you hold on to it, cling to it, you say, "I daren't break it down."
Q: It is like a sand castle.
K: Sand. Don't go off into similes. Stick to one thing. So I say, what is the need for it, because that brings enormous trouble, enormous pain? I am hurt, I am frightened, I am anxious, I am jealous, I am greedy, I must not, I must be - you know - this battle is going on constantly, emotionally getting stronger and stronger, more intense. And what am I building? What is the reality of this structure? You understand? The reality, in the sense this is real, the microphone in front of me is real. Actually I can touch it. Can I touch the psychological structure of the 'me'? I can't. So it is merely a building up of words. This is rather difficult to accept. One builds in relationship the hurts, the flattery, the comfort and so gradually out of that I depend on you. And you hurt me by doing something so I cling to you not to be hurt. And so on and so on. Now, why do we do this?
Q: We are protecting the part of us that does not know.
K: No. We don't know what will happen if there is no building up the 'me'. Right? I will find out. I will find out if I say, "All right, I will find out, there must be a process where the building up is not" - right? Then I will find out what happens. But to speculate what might happen before is such a waste of time and energy.
Q: That's what makes the fear do it.
K: So: first you build it up, society helps, religions help, everything helps to sustain the structure, and then you are afraid to loose it - right? And then you proceed to meditate how to get rid of this self - no? So before we say how to get rid of the self, let us find out why you build it.
Q: The need for power.
K: Yes, all right, it leads to power, put it any way you like. But the fact is this constant assertion, this constant building up of the 'me', psychologically, is it not a great danger? A great danger in your relationship with your wife, with your girl, with society, with anything. Is it not a great danger - because the danger is that you are in constant struggle, constant battle.
Q: It is difficult for you to adapt.
K: No sir, find out why you are - are you aware that you are building the 'me' up? And from that structure you have strong emotions, you want to express, you want to assert.
Q: Is it the need for pleasure?
K: Yes, all right, for pleasure and also it's fear, and also it is greed, and also it is constantly in pain, being hurt - you know. So don't take one thing and say it is that, it is the whole thing.
Q: Is not the 'me' a myth - is there not a myth that we believe in that if we don't survive psychologically we shan't survive.
K: It may be a myth sir but can't you throw away that myth?
Q: Have we been conditioned to this myth?
K: Yes, if you are conditioned to this myth, can't you uncondition yourself, can't the mind say, "It is nonsense"? See we don't want to do that and we talk round it all the time. If I am aggressive it gives me pleasure, it gives the structure of aggressiveness, it makes me violent, rude, vulgar and I like it. All right, keep it! Don't talk about meditation, etc. etc. etc. If that is a fact find out why you register these things, why you hold on, and whether it cannot be totally dissipated. If you say it cannot, that is the end of it. All right you cannot. If somebody says, "Find out if it can or not" - then you say you are an illusion, you are an ass, you don't know anything about it.
So whereas I am suggesting psychologically there is no need for registration, if you see the danger, real danger, as you see a precipice, real danger of this psychological build up of the 'me', then you find out how to be free of it. Not you, you are part of that. There will be no toleration of the 'me', with all the opinions, judgements, evaluations, aggressiveness, fear, pleasure, you know, the whole bundle of it.
Q: What about the registrations that have already taken place from childhood before you are able to reason in this way?
K: What about the registration that has taken place from childhood. If you see registration is a danger, then the childhood registration till now disappears.
Q: We don't see it though.
K: That is all I am saying sir. We won't see the danger of it, we like it. We like our fear, we like - you accept it, aggressiveness, we like to live in constant battle with ourselves, that gives us a sense of well being, that at least you are alive. And so on and so on.
Q: It is comfortable.
K: All right, sir, it is comfortable.
Q: What can we do with the vacuum that is left?
K: You see - what will you do if you are in a vacuum. That is, you don't know what will take place if there is no registration. Find out. Not say you will live in a vacuum. I say to you that you won't. What is the matter? On the contrary, a man who is in constant battle is not living.
Q: How do we find out?
K: How do I find out what?
Q: How can you find out what else there is? What is the alternative to having this ego thing. How can we find out what the alternative is? How do we go about it?
K: I don't understand.
Q: Have a faith.
Q: How did you do it? How did you get rid of your ego?
K: How do you know I have got rid of it? (Laughter)
No sir, don't bother about me. (Laughter) I have been a long time at it, from the age of fifteen. For me, when I was born, probably it was not there. But that is totally utterly irrelevant to you. What is relevant is you, why you hold on to this thing, this miserable unfortunate suffering 'me'. And to escape from that you go off to India, put on robes and put on beads - you know. (Laughter) All that nonsense goes on.
Q: Because we live in the past or the future, not in the present.
K: Please don't bother about me. Just find out why you build, see the consequences of building this structure, the consequences of this structure, and if you like it, if it pleases you, if it gives you comfort, know in that comfort there is tremendous danger, that you suffer, that you go through all kinds of neuroticisms, you know what is happening. If you say that gives me comfort, stay with it.
Q: In other words we are too lazy to change.
K: Yes. Now how is that? I perceive, or I am aware that I am building this structure, thought is building this structure all the time, sleeping, waking, dreaming, day dreaming, walking, all the time, concerned about itself. Now what is the way, what is the process to end this thing? You don't ask that.
Q: If I may - if I ask myself why I collect these identifying things about me, who do I ask in order to get past the me?
K: No I am asking you.
Q: I understand. I don't mean ask a person. How does an I do this?
K: I'll show you sir in a minute, look.
K: Is it a fact to you, that you are building psychologically this illusory structure, which has become such an extraordinary reality to one? Are you aware of the structure first?
Q: I think so, yes.
K: If one is aware of it, what do you mean by being aware of it? We have come back to the original question: what is the relationship between awareness and faith? There is no relationship whatsoever between awareness and faith. Faith is not a fact. It is a belief.
Q: Define faith. What does faith mean to you?
K: Nothing. Please don't bother about - so are you aware of the structure? Please let's be for five minutes serious. Are you aware of the structure in yourself? If you are, what do you mean by being aware? In that awareness is there a duality, that is, I am aware of that? You understand my question sir? I am aware of that light, that light is different from me. Now am I in that same position when I say I am aware of the structure, the structure being different from me? Or the structure is me?
Q: It is a very comfortable feeling.
K: No, no. It isn't a question of comfort or discomfort. Please move away from those things, forgive me, you are just going back to that. Which is, am I aware as though the structure were something separate from me, away over there, or near, and I who am aware is different from that? Or I am that? You understand? Obviously. Right? I am that. That is, the observer is the observed - right?
Q: I question if that is true or not.
K: No, no. There is no question, don't hesitate so, see it is so simple. I have built up this structure, the structure has been built. And part of the structure is, I am different from the structure. I am the soul, I am the great man, I am the, etc. etc. Or I am full of knowledge and the structure is not knowledge. You follow? So I am asking: do you see the structure as something separate from yourself?
K: If you really say no, that means, what does it mean?
K: No, sir. Oh, for half an hour, do please put your minds to this I beg of you. Are you different from your aggression? Obviously you are not. You are aggression, it is part of you.
Q: We alone can change it.
K: No. Who is we?
Q: I mean we ourselves. We can change.
Q: If I was just my aggression I wouldn't know about my aggression.
K: Oh yes you would.
K: Your friends would tell you, "Don't be so aggressive." (Laughter) If he is a friend.
Q: You ask us to look for ourselves, well that surely implies...
K: No, madam, I am asking this, please listen to it, if I may suggest. I am asking you how do you observe this structure? You can observe the building, see it away from you. But this structure you can't separate it, say "It is not me", it is you. Your fears, your quarrels, your ambitions, your aggressiveness, your anxieties, all that structure is you. There is no argument about it.
Q: But you are not a united thing. You are all sorts of things and they are all in conflict with each other.
K: That is what I am saying.
Q: How do you take aside one part of you and observe other parts?
K: No. The observer is part of the observed.
Q: Yes but you couldn't observe yourself in totality if you were...
K: Oh, yes. I can observe, I can say I am fear. The next day I say I am pleasure. The third day I say I am so jealous. But is part of the whole thing. Now that is what I am saying. Please, if I may suggest, please give your attention to this, which is: as long as the 'me' separates himself from the structure, the 'me' that separates itself from the structure, as long as there is this division there will be conflict, there will be fights, there will be nagging, there will be anxiety, and all the rest of it. But the fact is: the structure is you.
Q: Sir, the conflict seems to be inward, in the individual and it somehow seems to be a conflict between what you were talking about the senses not being fully alert, and also the mind, the intellectual mind wanting to take individual problems and fears or tendencies.
K: Sir, all that is included in that. Your individual tendencies, idiosyncrasies, your particular talent, or lack of talent, your capacity - include everything that thought has put together as me. That is the structure thought has created. Then thought says, "I am different from the structure."
Q: I don't think everybody thinks that they are different from the structure.
K: I don't know.
Q: I don't.
K: Do you. I am not talking to you personally madam, but I am just asking: does each one of us realize that we are the structure and that structure is not separate from us? If you realize that, if that is an actual fact then a totally different action takes place.
Q: Are you saying that the part of us that is made up of our belief is our outer shell and that in order to grow and evolve we have to break through something?
K: No, no, no. I am not saying anything of the kind. I am just saying sir - don't translate what I am saying into your own - you know when I speak in India, which I do unfortunately, or fortunately, they translate what I say into their own particular language and most of the languages in India are derived from Sanskrit, and the words they use are loaded with tradition, all kinds of meanings. I say, please don't translate what I am saying, just listen to what I am saying, which is very difficult because they immediately translate. They think by translating that they have understood. They have understood the traditional meaning, say for instance of awareness. They have got a special Sanskrit word for it, in that word there is all kinds of connotations in that word. So please, I am just saying, as long as there is a difference between the structure and the observer there must be suppression, there must be conflict, there must be escape, there must be going off to India, to find how to do this and how to do that, meditate, surely, not cooking and so on and so on and so on. Whereas when there is the actual proof, the fact that the observer is the observed, the structure is me, me is not different from the structure, then there is a totally different action. That is what I want to get at.
Q: Sir, if you realize that and there is a sort of silence, how do we keep that and not go back?
K: When you see a danger, a precipice, or a dangerous animal, you don't go back to it, it is finished.
Q: It seems to me that this process of separation is a fundamental process of all the conditioning that goes on, and everything that I seem to do to try and go against this conditioning, always seems to be just another part of this conditioning.
K: Yes sir.
Q: How on earth do I get around that?
K: I am showing it to you, you don't listen. Not that you must listen sir, but I am pointing out something. When you say "I am that conditioning, conditioning is not different from me" - when that becomes an absolute, irrevocable truth, a fact then there is totally different action out of that fact.
Q: Then what happens?
K: Ah! Then what happens - that is exactly what it is. First you don't come to it but you say then tell me what happens. (Laughter) You don't want to climb the mountain, which is arduous, which demands that you carry little, dangerous, I have played with all this, I have done this, some part of it. It is dangerous to climb mountains. So you go lightly, not with heavy rucksacks and all the rest of it.
So this demands that you work, that you look. But unfortunately all kinds of interruptions take place. Some of you this morning I saw doing exercises - good or bad, that is up to you - but here you don't even give ten minutes to find out. Find out what actually takes place when the observer of the structure is the observer himself - the structure is the observer. Then you will find there is no conflict at all - right? When you are that what can you do? You follow sir? So there is no conflict and therefore there is energy. I won't go more into it because that is too - where there is energy, complete energy there is emptiness.
That is enough for today, isn't it? Perhaps we can continue with this on Thursday. Would you agree to that please?
Brockwood Park 1978
Brockwood Park 1st Public Dialogue 29th August 1978
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