Bombay 2nd Public Talk 5th February 1984
Can we wait a little until that noise goes by?
Now we can begin. We were going to talk about, weren't we, if we can live in this world, which is pretty insane, if it is possible to live without conflict. And we have accustomed ourselves to make every kind of effort to achieve, not only biologically but also externally. Our society is so constructed that we have to make tremendous effort to have a vocation of imitation. Can we talk to each other quietly? We are saying that our society is made so that each one of us has to make a great deal of effort; to have a job, to have a career, to accumulate money for security and so on. A great deal of effort is necessary, school, college, university and so on. And also we have the concept that inwardly we also must make tremendous effort. Effort implies control. Effort implies conflict, inwardly, psychologically and outwardly. To this state of things we have become accustomed. Religious people, business people of every kind, must make effort. And in that effort there is involved a great deal of energy in conflict and so on.
We are going to talk over together (what a noisy place this is, isn't it?) - we are going to talk over together this question: why we live in conflict, why we have accustomed ourselves to live in this way, why human beings, right throughout the world, have not found a way of living a daily life without all the turmoil, all the anxiety, pain. And we are trained in vocation, which is imitation. One can understand why we have to make an effort externally. In an overpopulated country like this, badly managed governments and so on, we have to make an effort to live, to have a job. That's understood. And we are asking, why we human beings have to make inward effort. In that is implied control, conflict and various forms of struggle, anxiety and so on. We are questioning why human beings have to make inward effort at all, have inward psychological conflict. Is that question clear?
We are asking is it necessary for human beings in their relationship with each other because we cannot possibly live alone, even though you are a hermit, you are always related to somebody. So we are asking whether it is possible to live in this world of immense turmoil, immense complexity, externally, whether we can live without a single conflict. Right? That is the question we are going to ask. The speaker is not asking the question, you are asking, as both of us are taking a journey together. If that is very clear, we are both of us going to enquire carefully into this question. As we said yesterday evening, we are not giving a lecture. Thank god! Lecture implies giving you certain information on a particular subject, to instruct, to inform, or to do any kind of propaganda. We are not doing any kind of propaganda. We are not trying to convince you of anything. Right? We are not trying to instruct you. And so please as most of us are trained to obey, trained to follow, trained to accept, if you brain is so conditioned you cannot possibly enquire into this very complex question whether it is possible to live in this world without any sense of conflict. Right? So please you are asking these questions of yourself. The speaker is only acting as a mirror in which you see yourself. When you see yourself in the mirror reflected exactly, then you can throw away the mirror, destroy the mirror because you have seen yourself very clearly so you need no longer have a mirror, an interpreter, a person who explains, or analyses. Right? We understand each other up till now? We are not doing any kind of propaganda, we are not trying to convince you of anything. On the contrary we are saying you must have doubt, you must have a great deal of scepticism, because doubt frees the mind from all the accumulated tradition, all the accumulated nonsense which we call religion. Religion is something entirely different, which we will go into a little later.
But to understand this problem, which is whether we can live in this world without a single breath of conflict. Probably you have never asked this question. And probably you will say, it is impossible to live in this world without conflict. If you say, it is impossible, then you have closed the door. Right? But if you say, it is possible, then you have also closed the door. You understand? But if you say, we are going to enquire into a very, very complex problem, because all our life from childhood until we die is a series of struggles, a series of conflicts, everlasting pain and misery, confusion. Right? So please, you are asking this question. And let's go into it carefully.
Why is there conflict in our life? We can understand that there must be conflict, struggle to survive, as the society is constructed at the present time, where each man is out for himself. Right? Aren't you? In your business, in your religious affairs, in your concept of salvation, enlightenment, each one thinks he is separate. And this separation outwardly and inwardly is one of the major factors of conflict. Right? We went into that a little yesterday. Are we following each other? Or are we all asleep on a Sunday afternoon, it is pleasant, having a restful day, and perhaps you have come here to be entertained. We are slaves to entertainment - the cinemas, the magazines, the constant religious ceremonies, they are forms of entertainments, stimulation. And perhaps Sunday evening is another form of entertainment. But this is not an entertainment, it is a very serious matter, and requires a great deal of not only intellectual capacity but a quality of brain that is enquiring, pushing, driving.
To live peacefully in this world we need a great deal of intelligence. To live a religious life requires far greater intelligence. We mean by that word, not only what the dictionary says, which is to read between the lines, to gather information. That's the function of the intellect: to read between the lines, to gather information, store it and use that information, knowledge skilfully. Right? So we need not only the intellectual capacity to understand the depth and to discern, to watch, to observe very clearly what is a fact, and what is not a fact. Fact being that which has happened, which is the past. That's a fact. And also what is happening now, that is also a fact. You are sitting there and the speaker is sitting here, that's a fact. One might have had a beautiful sunset yesterday and you saw it, that's a fact. But the future is not a fact. The future is 'what is', now. This is a little bit complex, I'll go into it.
We are the past, our memories, our remembrances, our accumulation of knowledge and so on, all that has happened in the past. And that past meets the present, modifies itself and goes on to the future, so the future is the present. Right? Have you understood? That is, the present contains not only the past, then the present but also the future. That means the present is all time. I won't complicate it, we'll go round slowly.
So as you observe we are living in the past, our memories, our knowledge, our remembrances are the past. And the present is the past modifying itself and going on to the future. The culture, the so-called culture of this country has disappeared, the ancient culture. And it has adjusted itself to the modern conditions. Right? Money, power, and so on, adjusted itself and is going on into the future. So the future is the past, modified. Right? Right? So the whole of this movement is time, which is evolution. I wonder if you get all this. It is not clever, this is not a clever experience, don't go off and think how clever this is. But see the fact of our daily life; our daily life consists not only of the past, past incidents, past accidents, past hurts, wounds, psychologically, and also the past remembrance of having a toothache, all that is the past. And in that past we live. Right? And that past is all the time modifying itself because there are new incidents, new accidents, new impressions, and therefore it is adjusting itself, but it is always the movement of the past, rooted in the past. Right? Do you see this? Need I explain further any more of this? I will because it is very complicated.
So our life is the past, meeting the present, and therefore the past meeting the present is one of the factors of conflict. Do you understand? Observe for yourself the present state of the world, specially the world of India, of your country - it is not my country; my country isn't Europe or America, I have no country; it is good to be like that, except one has to have a Passport, but Passport doesn't make you an Indian, it is a piece of paper. So look what is happening in this country: an ancient culture, three to five thousand years old, has utterly disappeared - whether it is right or wrong that is not the point. The Brahmanical culture - don't get excited about it - and that has gone. And the Western civilization, which is both cultural, aesthetic, technological has invaded this country. So you have adjusted yourself to that pattern. You see it. So the past is continually modifying itself. Right? And the division between the past and the present is one of the factors of conflict. Do you get this? Please. And therefore is it possible to live a daily life, not a theoretical life - the word and the deed are two different things. For us the word is more important, not the deed. You hear all this, and that becomes words, and it becomes a theory and you carry on with your daily life, totally divorced from what you have heard, or read, or theorized. So there is a division between the word and the action, deed. And that's also one of the factors of conflict. Right? You understand? Somebody say, yes, for god's sake.
So is it possible to live in daily life - please understand this - in daily life so that there is no division between the past, the future and the present. That is, the brain is recording. Right? Like that recorder there, every incident, every accident, tendency, impression, physical hurts, psychological wounds, all that is being taped. The brain is a recording machine. And as long as it is recording, which is the past, that record is preventing you from looking at the new. Right? I wonder if you understand all this.
Now just take a very simple example: psychologically you get hurt, from childhood, through the family, through school, college, university, you get hurt psychologically: you are not as good as your brother, you are not doing well in the examinations and so on. All this process is a factor of hurting psychologically, and that wound is the past. Right? Look at yourself, find out whether you are wounded. Of course you are wounded; every human being is wounded psychologically, by a harsh word from a father, from a mother, from a husband, wife, it acts as a wound. Now where there is a wound psychologically you build a wall of resistance, naturally. Right? So that wound prevents you from further meeting others so that you never want to be hurt again. Haven't you noticed all this? Yes? Or you are so extraordinary human beings you have never been hurt?
So that wound is the past, that wound has been recorded. Right? In the brain. Now as long as that record remains there must be fear. Get it? And therefore conflict. So can we not record? I need to record how to drive a car, to learn a language, to do a crooked business, I need to have all kinds of knowledge to live physically. There the brain has to record. Right? We are questioning, why should the brain record the wound? Do you understand? Because as long as there is a record it must continue in the fear of being further wounded. Right? So we are asking a question, complex, which requires careful examination, whether it is possible not to record psychologically, inwardly. You understand? Put that question to yourself, please, find out. Somebody flatters you, says, what a marvellous person you are - why should you record it? And somebody comes along and says, you are an ass - and you instantly record it. This recording is one of the factors of conflict. Right? If you understand that then you will see whether it is possible not to record at all. Because the self, the ego, the 'me', is the collection of all the records of humanity. Right? Right sir?
The brain has two functions: one to record, where it is necessary, and not to record where it is not necessary. So the brain then is uncluttered, free, and therefore you are not any more living in the past, therefore there is no conflict. Right? You understand? Sir, don't accept what the speaker is saying, for god's sake, or for your own sake. Understand for yourself the fact. The fact is not what you think, the fact is 'what is'. You can think about it, what you think about it is not a fact. Right? The fact is 'what is'. So if you see how to live a life in which there is extraordinary energy, and therefore no conflict, and conflict exists as long as this recording process goes on, then you will ask the question inevitably: how is this possible. Right? It sounds theoretically excellent, but how is this to take place. Right? You are asking this question naturally. Now when you ask 'how', what is implied in that question, how, in that word how? You want a system, you want a pattern, you want a method, which is the past. Do you see this? I wonder if you see this? You see we are always asking, please tell us how to do something. I can understand if I am a carpenter I need to go to a master carpenter to show me how to do things, look at the grain of the wood, whether it is the right wood and so on and so on. But when I ask 'how' inwardly I want a pattern which I can follow. Right? A method which I can copy. So the method, the system, the practice, is being recorded in the brain. Right? You are following this? So never ask, 'how'. That's one of the greatest discoveries: never ask 'how', of anybody psychologically. Of course you will ask, how am I to get from this place to the room I live in. I'd have to ask a policeman, that's a different matter. But to ask a guru - there are you, I see various people with their peculiar dress who have got gurus - they will ask the gurus how to attain enlightenment. The poor chap tells you how. All that you do is repeat, so that your brain is recording. Do you follow? And that record prevents you from clarity.
Now if you don't ask 'how', if you can put that word totally out of your consciousness, then what is left? Then you are looking at yourself, you are looking at your own activity of the past operating on the present, modifying itself, and going on. This cycle. Right? The cycle of action, reaction; and reaction, action. Right? This is the cycle we live in. It's like a tide going out, and the same waters coming in. Right? This is our life.
Now we are going to ask another question, which is - am I disturbing you too much? It's up to you - that is, our life is action and reaction. It's like the tide going out, the tide coming in: challenge, response, question, answer. Now as the water goes out and the waters comes in, can there be a state of brain when there is no action and reaction? This requires a great deal of observation of yourself. I won't go into it, it is too complex for the moment.
So is it possible not to record? Right? Not to record insult or flattery, not to record, somebody says you are an ass, or an idiot, and you think you are a clever man, not to record. That is only possible when you see what the recording process does in life. Right? Suppose you are married, or unmarried, or live with a girl and so on, every incident in that relationship, whether it is sexual and so on, every incident, the word is recorded, is taped, recorded. This is so, isn't it? And you have a record of the husband, those two records are memories. And therefore you are living in the past. Naturally. So what takes place? You never meet each other afresh. Right? You never see anything anew. Right? And there lies the conflict, you are always meeting the new and changing the new to conform to the past. And the making the new conform, similar to the past, is a process of conflict. I wonder if you understand all this.
Are we exercising our brain, or merely listening? Are you using your brain, capacity?
So come back: when you are recording all the time you are wasting energy because you remember what you said to me, and I get angry about it. You follow? So you discover all recording is a wastage of energy. And you need energy. The people who are great scholars, who have read such a lot, who know so many things, haven't you meet them - tremendous lot all stored in the brain. Why carry all that in your brain? It is in the books, you can read them, why carry it here? Enquire, go into it, you will see. You carry it in here because it gives you power, position, scholarly, great pundit. Right? So your brain then becomes so burdened with knowledge, and knowledge is the ending of love. For god's sake. Learn this from your heart, not intellectually. Then you place knowledge - knowledge has its place, and psychologically it has no place whatsoever. Right? Can you live like that? Can you live a daily life never recording psychologically? Would you try it? Would you do it as you are sitting now, there? Or go home and think about it? I know you are going to think about it, which is what you are probably doing, you are thinking about it. And that thinking, which is born of knowledge, is going to prevent love. Right?
So we are going to go into another question: when you think about something, what do you mean by thinking? I think about you, about my wife, my husband, I think about my business. Think. What is thinking? Thinking about something, and thinking, not about something. Do you see the difference? Oh lord! Can we go on? You aren't too tired? Sunday afternoon! You can learn all over again on Monday morning, the routine so it is safe. This evening you are more or less free you can enjoy yourself to listen to all this rubbish. But it is not rubbish, it is something terribly serious because man is destroying himself, and knowledge is one of the factors of destruction, and therefore where there is love there is no destruction.
We must understand a certain thing, which is, what is thinking, and what is thinking about something. Right? Thinking about something is one factor, and thinking is another factor. Right? Thinking. So I can think about Europe, or Lebanon, the destruction, the murders, the appalling things that are going on, or I enquire what is thinking. You understand? Would you join me in this game? We are working out this together, I am not doing it for my amusement, we are doing it together. What is thinking? When you say, 'I will think about what you have said', which is thinking about what I have said. Or you are actually thinking without the object. Right? Now what is thinking? Because thought has created the most extraordinary things in life: the great temples, the great mosques, the marvellous cathedrals, the splendour of those marvellous structures soaring up into the sky, the great paintings, the sculpture, the great poems. Right? And also thought has created the extraordinary instruments of wars. Thought has also created all the things in the temples, in the mosques, in the churches. Right? These are facts. You may say, no, they are a direct revelation from god, when you say that, that is also thought. Right?
So thought has done the most extraordinary things; and also done the most appalling things. Thought has burnt people, calling them heretics and burnt them. And thought said, you must follow Marx, Engels and so on. Thought has been extraordinarily important in our life. Right? Do you understand this? Now what is thought? What is thinking? Look, enquire, look at it. Look at your own way of thinking. You think about your wife - suppose, if you ever do - you think about your wife, or husband, what is that thinking, when you think about her, or him? You have the experience of that person, the image of that person, the nature, the look, the structure, the appearance of that person, which is memory. Right? Right, sirs? And that memory is based on knowledge of that person. Right? And that knowledge is based on the experience with that person. Right? Do you see this? So thinking is born from experience, knowledge derived from experience, stored in the brain as memory, and the reaction to that memory is thought. Right? So thought is a material process. Right? Would you see that? Right, sir? So thought is not sacred, and whatever it creates is not sacred - your Upanishads, your Gita, your Bible, Koran, is not sacred. See what you are accepting the moment you say, thought is a material process. It is a material process because the brain cells contain the past memories, the past knowledge, past experience, and from that thought arises. If you had no experience, no knowledge, no memory, there is no thought. Right? So look at it carefully, you will see it for yourself. So thought is a material process. Right? Would you see that? So thought has created god, and then thought worships god. Yes, Sir, you are had! This is very important, please look at it.
And if thought is a material process, then what are we? You understand my question? What are we psychologically? Thought says you are a Hindu, thought says you are a great man, thought says you must achieve enlightenment. Right? Though says you must mediate, thought says obey, follow, become like somebody else. So thought says, become: outwardly, if you are a clerk become the manager, if you are the manager become the executive, if you are the executive the Chairman. Then also thought says, you are a disciple, you will eventually be the master and ultimately the guru, and still further, enlightenment. Thought is constructing all this. I wonder if you realize all this.
So thought, we live by thought. And as experience is limited, so knowledge is always limited, whether it is scientific knowledge, biological knowledge, arithmetical knowledge and so on, all knowledge is always eternally limited. Future knowledge is limited. Right? Do you see this? No, you don't. Right, sir? Knowledge is limited because it is based on experience, and because it is experience it is limited. Therefore thought is limited. Thought can imagine the limitless, and imagine you achieving the limitless. Right? Are you following all this? Thought is words. Thought is the symbol. So enlightenment, the measureless, is a word. And the word is not the actual. You understand all this? So can the brain be free of the network of words? Yes, sir!
And the self, the 'me', the ego, is knowledge. Right? Right, sir? You pundits, would you agree to that? The self, the 'me', is the essence of knowledge. No? All right, let's put it round the other way. What is the self? What are you? Come on, sirs, what are you? Your name, your form, the clothes you wear - you are a sannyasi, you have a peculiar kind - you have a bank account, you are a businessman, you have had a lot of experience, you have had a great deal of pleasure, pain, anxiety, loneliness, sorrow. Right? You are that, aren't you? Right? Would you acknowledge that? Or do you say, 'I am Atman, something far superior'? Oh, yes, you all do. If you say, 'I am far superior', that's also the invention of thought. Right? Because you have read about it, so you think there is a higher self, or some guru comes along and says there is super consciousness, and you must draw it down. Right? So all that process is a movement of thought. Right? And thought is time, because to acquire knowledge requires time. To acquire knowledge, say Russian or English, or Spanish, or French requires a great deal of time, you may spend three months, or a year, that is time. So to acquire knowledge inwardly or outwardly requires time. Right? To learn about yourself is to have time. Right? Do you understand this? See what game you are playing with yourself. I want to learn about myself - self-knowledge, which I have talked a great deal about. Self-knowledge, to know myself, and to know myself I must investigate, I must observe, I must analyze, I must have introspection. You follow? Watch, learn, observe, self-recollection, be aware, all that takes time. Right? Would you agree with that? Do you see that? All that requires time. To know about the moon requires time. This is simple. And also to know myself, we have said, requires time. Right? Which means what? Oh, you are missing so much, what's the matter with you?
Time is the enemy of man. Illumination is not enlightenment through time, it isn't a gradual process, success after success. When you see thought is time, of course - you understand - thought is movement. Right? And time is movement. Clear? So thought and time go together, they are not separate. Thought is time, and time is thought. So thought says, 'I must become enlightened. I must become from what I am to what I should be'. Right? Need I explain all this? I am violent. Human beings are violent. You are violent, aren't you? And you say, 'I must not be violent' or become non-violent. So to become non-violent takes time. During that interval of becoming non-violent you are being violent. So non-violence is nonsense. Right? What is fact is violence. So our brains are trained to become. As you become a clerk, reach the ladder, the same is extended to the psychological world. You are following? There, you say, I am ignorant, I must have knowledge about myself, I am violent, I must become non-violent. Right? I am angry, I must become without anger. Now look at it carefully. You are violent, violence is not separate from you. Would you agree to that? Right? The Hindus are very clever birds! They will agree up to a point. I can see it in their faces. But they have got behind them the idea that the 'me' is different from the observer, the witness, the person who witnesses is different. Right? I know the game you are playing. Is that a fact? Is it a fact that there is an observer different from anger? Careful, don't answer me, look at it carefully. Anger is me. I am not different from anger. Violence is me, non-violence is not me. Right? That's just an idea. The fact is I am violent. That is a fact. Non-violence is non-fact. But we pursue knowledge because we don't know how to deal with 'what is'. You are following this?
So the observer is not different from the observed. Right? Goodness, I'll go into it. You see that tree over there, if you ever look at trees. When you look at a tree, the tree is obviously different from you. Right? The cloud of an evening, full of light and beauty, is different from you. But when you look at that tree, what takes place, when you do look at the tree what takes place? You immediately use the word. Right? So the word interferes with looking at it. She is my wife, or my husband. Finished. Right? Don't you know all this? So the word is preventing you from observing. Right? And also the word is not the thing. Right? The word 'tree' is not the tree. The word 'my wife' is not the wife. I wonder if you see this. If you see this, your relationship with your wife would be entirely different.
So time is thought, and thought says, 'I am this, I must become that', therefore the becoming implies time. And what are you becoming? You, pundit, answer this. What are you becoming? More enlightened, a better human being? You are not good, but you say, 'I will become good', and when you are becoming good you will never be good. I wonder if you see that. So there is no becoming, which is one of the factors of conflict. But if you say, 'All right, the fact is violence is me, violence is not separate from me', that's a fact. The 'me' is my face, the 'me' is my talent and all the rest of it. But we have separated the 'me' from the thing that is happening. Right? That is, thought has separated violence from the thinker. Right? Are you getting tired? You must be tired. Because you are just not co-operating, working, that's all you say, 'I am not tired'. If you are co-operating, working, you would see what an extraordinary thing is going on with your brain.
Look: violence is me, greed is me, anger is me; later on I say, 'I have been angry', but the fact is anger, jealousy, hate, anxiety and so on, is me. So the observer is the observed. Right? Right, sirs? Do you see this? Sir, one of the factors of conflict is that we have divided the thinker from thought. Right? Without thought there is no thinker. Right? But we have separated the thinker, the experiencer from the experience. We have separated the analyzer from the analyzed. Right? Haven't you noticed this? So there is perpetual conflict, division. So the observer is the observed. The experiencer is the experienced.
We should go into the question of - oh, we have got no time. You all know to experience, don't you - nirvana, or some other factor, sex, or any other, you want to experience. What is experience? How do you know it is an experience? Only you know it when you recognize it. Right? So, see what is happening, when you recognize it, it is not new. But yet you say, I must have new experiences. So all experiences when recognized are merely the past memories. Yes, sir, take this into your blood and you will see what takes place. Then your mind is so alert, so aware, so attentive, there is no experience at all. Oh, you won't accept this.
So we are enquiring into the cause of conflict. The cause of conflict - one of the causes, is duality. Right? Violence and non-violence, that's duality. The good and the bad, hate and love. Why do you have duality? Don't translate it into adwaita or some other Sanskrit word and get away with it. Why do we have duality? What is duality? You are a woman, I am a man, you are tall, I am short, you are fair, another is lighter, whatever it is. Only duality exists when there is comparison. Are you following all this? When I compare myself with you I have created duality. Right? Right sir? So if I don't compare there is no duality. Right? That is, I have invented non-violence, this country is full of that, non-violence - at least they talk about it. But the fact is they are violent. The fact. The fact has no duality. Oh, do see that. I have just discovered that. You understand? The fact has no opposite. I am angry. That's a fact. But when I say, I must not be angry, then duality arises. So, it's very interesting, I wish your brains would go into all this. So I am angry. That's a fact. What am I to do? I won't say, 'I must not be angry', then I am in conflict. You understand? I won't suppress it. There is no suppression, there is no escape, there is no transcending it. So what happens? Go on, sir. What happens when there is no movement away from the fact? Go on. It is the movement away from it that creates conflict, creates duality. And volumes have been written by clever Indians about duality. The speaker said there is no duality, right from the beginning, because there is only the fact. But when I want to get over the fact, then I create duality. Right? Then what takes place? How to remain with the fact. Not move away from the fact. Any movement away from the fact is conflict and duality.
So when you remain with the fact, what takes place? You work it out. I am working it out, but you work it out. What happens when you remain with the fact? Which means what? I can tell you, you will say, 'Yes, yes', and go away. You don't apply. Sir, look: when I move away from the fact I have lost energy. Right? Do you see that? When I move away from the fact it is a wastage of energy. Right. So when there is no movement away from the fact, all energy is there, which means complete attention there, with the fact. And when there is complete attention then it is like light, a high powered light being thrown on the fact. And then the fact reveals all its content. You understand? Then the fact has no meaning. You understand?
Sir, look: we said knowledge is an enemy of love. And love has no opposite. But we have made an opposite, hate. (Sorry, slight cramp. I am working too hard for you, that is what it is.) So, sirs, we have examined the very, very complex problem, we have examined together, the speaker has not examined, you have examined. The speaker is merely acting as your voice. The speaker is merely showing 'what is', and you are looking at it, looking at yourself. And when you look at yourself, carefully, you are nothing but the past - past memories, past remembrances, past pleasures. And when you suffer, as most human beings do, unfortunately, again escape from it. So when you remain with a fact it is like looking at a bud, looking at a rose bud, and you will see the rose bud open, the perfume of it, the beauty of it, the quality of it, the gentleness, the tenderness. And when you observe the fact it fades away.
We will continue next weekend talking about fear, sorrow, what is religion, what is meditation, what is death. Because all this is part of our life. You cannot separate one from the other. You cannot say, 'I am going to meditate' and be a stupid person. To understand life, this whole complex problem of life, you need great patience, not the patience of time, patience. You need a brain that is alive, questioning, asking, doubting, and then you will find out for yourself, without words, that which is not measured by words.
Sorry if I have kept you.
Bombay 2nd Public Talk 5th February 1984
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